tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.comments2019-03-04T18:54:01.162+08:00Chinese Law and SocietySeth Gurgelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-8770411627481795492019-03-04T18:54:01.162+08:002019-03-04T18:54:01.162+08:00Yes i am totally agreed with this article and i ju...Yes i am totally agreed with this article and i just want say that this article is very nice and very informative article.I will make sure to be reading your blog more. You made a good point but I can't help but wonder, what about the other side? !!!!!!Thanks <a href="https://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/member15472.htm" rel="nofollow">Professional Chinese translation service</a><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05329838614307656485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-19752165363011130872018-10-09T21:50:47.572+08:002018-10-09T21:50:47.572+08:00My friend recommended this blog and he was totally...My friend recommended this blog and he was totally right keep up the fantastic work! <a href="https://www.newjerseyattorneysearch.com/" rel="nofollow">newjerseyattorneysearch.com</a><br />Jims lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07385507354598354902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-68268947775231856532018-09-12T22:16:48.793+08:002018-09-12T22:16:48.793+08:00health tips before flying<a href="https://affordableinsuracepolicies.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">health tips before flying</a>Munir Commerce Collegehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08751786114102204724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-3479561458093626972013-02-15T08:17:18.557+08:002013-02-15T08:17:18.557+08:00Shanghai ranks #1 in the world, HK #2 in PISA scor...Shanghai ranks #1 in the world, HK #2 in PISA scores. China itself is in the top 10. I'm not so surprised. I saw an English class with 12-year-olds in western Gansu. A poor village. The kids' pronunciation, cadence, and expressiveness was awesomely good. Better than many of our inner-city schools in that regard.Godfree Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06178509602799506224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-29311533204483223932013-02-15T07:54:28.116+08:002013-02-15T07:54:28.116+08:00Thanks for putting your thoughts into words. Thanks for putting your thoughts into words. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03286548899154996092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-30463359139338862122011-07-19T08:18:43.315+08:002011-07-19T08:18:43.315+08:00I agree with you on the conservative nature of par...I agree with you on the conservative nature of parenting, I noticed it in myself when I was teaching. I also like the parallel of us being "born-yesterday" and thus failing to understand a two-thousand-year-old phenomenon. <br /><br />Plenty for each side to learn from the other, and that's already happening, although I'm a bit incredulous about dramatic changes happening in Shanghai education or elsewhere. The changes are happening, if at all, in large part because the city's watching a large section of its wealthy population sending their kids abroad, or simply immigrating altogether. Again, if we build a decent democracy with robust education, they (the Chinese elite) will come, and are already coming. <br /><br />I'm less worried about our grade school test scores than I am worried about us failing to learn as much from East Asian societies as they've learned from us.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-46667350003411190122011-07-18T20:26:32.179+08:002011-07-18T20:26:32.179+08:00Agreed, and I think you're seeing support for ...Agreed, and I think you're seeing support for that point of view amongst progressive parents in Shanghai. They are getting some traction with the educational authorities there, too, to everyone's credit.<br /><br />What is so hard for us born-yesterday Westerners to grasp is the weight and momentum of the traditional Chinese approach to education. Imagine having 2,000 years of astonishing accomplishment (see Needham's history of Chinese technology, among many others) looming over every parental decision!<br /><br />My personal efforts at educational reform suggest that parenting rivals agriculture for conservatism, regardless of culture or nationality...Godfree Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06178509602799506224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-69197566966822282382011-07-18T09:11:50.167+08:002011-07-18T09:11:50.167+08:00Thanks Godfree, I'd be very interested in seei...Thanks Godfree, I'd be very interested in seeing your study, more transnational education surveys need to be done. <br /><br />"Pulling ahead" in what terms? It seems that every time I try to get out of doing the China-US comparison in material or state power terms, "they pull me back in." I'm trying to suggest that we take Athens as a model for development, not because it will "outlast anyone" but simply because I see it as a good, something perhaps akin to Blake's "joy."<br /><br />Please note that I take no issue with raising educational standards or five-year-olds reading, what I take issue with is tunnel-vision, rote-based education for purely materialistic ends. There are better ways to get "return on the investment," but they take sophisticated parenting, teaching, and education methods. It's easier to force a child to do four or five hours of math facts and English flashcards a day than to create a complex, rich environment that inspires more synaptic firing, teaching the basic facts while simultaneously equipping students for higher-level thought (thoughts of justice) and a lifetime of curiosity, skills critical for a healthy democracy.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-5767300286911054472011-07-18T02:14:52.190+08:002011-07-18T02:14:52.190+08:00Bravo for taking a swing at this very big cross-cu...Bravo for taking a swing at this very big cross-cultural issue. Most commentators have contented themselves with shallow generalities and equally shallow fear-mongering.<br /><br />Having taught kids in (Confucian) Japan and (formally) democratic USA I find plenty to agree with on both sides of your argument. But I do have disagreements about the outcomes you imply, and the correlations you imply.<br /><br />My doctoral studies focused on experimental educational systems and I saw some public schools so good that most teachers and parents refused to believe they existed. The kids they produced were exemplary both personally and academically.<br /><br />But I also met products of the Confucian approach that you describe, and they were equally outstanding. And I saw a strong correlation between how consistently parents forced their children to study and how successful those children were, just as Tiger Mom was by her parents.<br /><br />In the Confucian world there IS no childhood after age 5, and there is no individualism as we know it: there is profound responsibility to (extended) family, to society, and to the Nation. I am writing this in Buddhist Thailand but the underlying culture here Is Confucian and a few feet from me, on a Saturday afternoon, sit children poring over their books--with not a parent in sight. All of them revere their parents and literally strive to do what their parents direct them to do.<br /><br />This picture may seem grim and repressive to us Westerners raised, as we were in times and places of abundance which we attributed to democracy and individualistic Capitalism. But as we now embark on a period of resource scarcity my guess is that our Confucian cousins will out-innovate and outlast us. The signs of this transition are already abundantly clear.<br /><br />The verdict on these two approaches will never be finally rendered, I hope. But to date it appears that the Confucian is once again pulling aheadGodfree Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06178509602799506224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-10392264173970965202011-05-02T22:08:09.040+08:002011-05-02T22:08:09.040+08:00Thanks dujuan, translation's a funny thing, an...Thanks dujuan, translation's a funny thing, and is always much harder than I think it's going to be. "Oceans and mulberries" worked for this post, I don't know if that's how I'd translate it out of this context. <br /><br />Do you still get back to Chongqing ever? I wander what the girls have been writing the past year or so.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-64001593337253783972011-05-02T17:07:06.531+08:002011-05-02T17:07:06.531+08:00Great post. Reminds me of some essays by some girl...Great post. Reminds me of some essays by some girls I taught in Chongqing in 1998. Oceans and mulberries. I have looked up and translated cangsang quite a few times. But your rendition is very unique. Almost like Hinton's Long Bow. No, yours is much less contrived.dujuan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/07521104148180780659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-44725098735655426612011-05-02T09:05:24.270+08:002011-05-02T09:05:24.270+08:00I'll let that comment speak for itself.I'll let that comment speak for itself.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-77872323695992244262011-05-02T00:54:19.667+08:002011-05-02T00:54:19.667+08:00Ha, typical Land of Lincoln behavior.
Note that,...Ha, typical Land of Lincoln behavior. <br /><br />Note that, comparatively speaking, our respective states are actually doing ok. Other regional disputes around the world are far more caustic, even if my lake does charge Illini five times more to launch their boats than it does locals.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-3749725087735162512011-05-02T00:21:38.060+08:002011-05-02T00:21:38.060+08:00I stopped believing everything you wrote after you...I stopped believing everything you wrote after you basically trashed all FIBs. My affective filter killed it for me...Burkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06060479446828856373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-91939906815018159042011-02-17T04:57:48.860+08:002011-02-17T04:57:48.860+08:00In historical context, China had her Egypt moment ...In historical context, China had her Egypt moment in 1911 when the monarchy was overthrown. The following 100 years has been a process of evolution with many bumps on the road and with more to come. Democracy won't be a panacea to injustices and inequalities many still face in places like India and the Philippines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-82695100308407002092010-10-31T01:10:18.306+08:002010-10-31T01:10:18.306+08:00Hi, Seth. I appreciate your insights (and apparent...Hi, Seth. I appreciate your insights (and apparent love of Dostoevsky). Thanks for sharing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04335776838775857802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-69157424953019409512010-10-25T05:27:53.859+08:002010-10-25T05:27:53.859+08:00You don't necessarily have to agree with that ...You don't necessarily have to agree with that to agree with the thrust of my last two posts, though. In these, I've been trying to connect a number of things that have puzzled me over the years with recent developments. <br /><br />1) Since I first came here, I've been trying to figure out what's happened to traditional Chinese culture, and how it fits into the development picture. I now believe that it hasn't changed that much, and in fact, that the best way to understand the Chinese miracle is by recognizing that it's not a miracle, but rather, science plugged into a culture that's been refined over thousands of years. It was almost always a powerful, successful country, and part of what made it successful was that it was extraordinarily good at recognizing "what works" and sublimating that into its own culture. Hence my belief that "old white men" have become part of the group of deified patriarchs in China's Confucian tradition. Confucianism may have stunted creativity and growth, but it certainly allows for efficient reproduction and replication once you have a sense of direction. <br /><br />2) Historical determinism. While I understand how historical determinism ended up in the Chinese consciousness (Marx), I'm still amazed at how most Chinese I talk to believe in the inevitability of progress, even to the development of democracy. It's striking for a number of reasons. One, see above (and even your own doubt that transferring suffering will actually work), I don't think Westerners buy this. Two, it views the development of freedom and democracy in the West as the rational ends of progress, rather than the fragile products of struggle and revolution, which can (and have) gone either way. <br /><br />3) The first Old White Men post tried to point out these trends in Wen Jiabao's and others calls for democracy -- they all intimate a strong belief that democracy is part of the natural, determined progression of humankind. Which is fine as long as it stays with democracy, but what's scary is the other, devastating aspects of unchecked belief in the inevitability of progress are also here in China: growing nationalism, "colonialism" done in the spirit of lifting other ethnicities out of poverty and ignorance (while concomitantly lifting their oil and minerals), investment in Africa that has strong mercantilist strains, etc. In some ways, one wishes some of the recent Western self-doubt to color China's notion of progress.<br /><br />4) This last post is trying to explain how Hu and Wen aren't really very far apart. I also just wanted to try to put forward my theory on baorongxing (that it's more about forgiveness than growth), which I foolishly think is kind of novel. <br /><br />In the end, I want to fit baorongxing into my overall theory that China's trying to move toward democracy in the same way it moved towards progress in every other area: top-down, and by following a Western roadmap. I think it's fascinating: most of us see scientific, political, economic, literary, and musical progress as all tied to the emancipation of the individual mind, whereas in China, I'd like to argue that this hasn't happened as much, and rather, that most of this has been led by top-down efforts. The idea of a top-down democracy is mind-blowing for me, but in some ways, just like China's been able to develop at light speed in other areas, if it could "skip" (more of) the revolution and violence that accompanied Western struggles for democracy, who wouldn't be for that?Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-61349695323638586342010-10-25T05:25:40.470+08:002010-10-25T05:25:40.470+08:00Thanks Artie, I think this may be a failure of com...Thanks Artie, I think this may be a failure of communication on my part, and on the part of our representative disciplines. Many people in the humanities are far less bullish on the legacy of the greats of western civ than I would imagine those in the sciences would be, after all, a scientific theory is either right or wrong, useful or not, there's very little moral judgment that takes place. <br /><br />The reason I use "old white men" so repeatedly, is that it symbolizes, first, in the humanities, a condemnation of a literary canon dominated by nothing but white men, but I think more than that, it also symbolizes an increasingly vitriolic critique of the political actions taken by those and other men in the name of progress: colonization, mercantilism, nationalism, social darwinism, and ultimately the massive destruction caused by the nexus of these with advances in technology in the great wars. See People's History of the US, why people hate Christopher Columbus now, etc. (Although some put the blame more on religion and greed.)<br /><br />Anyway, a lot of this has put a damper on the idea that reason will necessarily lead to the "progress" of mankind, as it's become quite obvious that being technologically advanced doesn't make a person (or country) moral. In many European circles, this has led to a lot of hand-wringing (I think I remember Tony Blair talking about this), where there's just not a lot of certainty on just what they can be proud of/export in terms of values.<br /><br />My general belief is that China, no fan of colonialism of course, has more faith in the inevitable progress that will be brought about by Western science and reason than many who ascribe to the above historical analysis. In many ways, it's adopted a 19th century France view of "progress," which saw nothing but good for humanity guided by reason, and thought that it was bearing a torch for the rest of the world. I don't know if you'd get the same certainty from modern France (or any other Western country), although, of course, there are some people who still believe this.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-27794453228461649262010-10-25T02:26:24.931+08:002010-10-25T02:26:24.931+08:00Loved the essay on Liu Xiaobo, was confused about ...Loved the essay on Liu Xiaobo, was confused about the old men dreaming dreams, and (in my ignorance) wonder if "Hu, Wen, and How" might be simplified a bit.<br /><br />The last two refer to "progress" being an article of faith in China, but lost in the west. I can't figure out if this specifically refers to representative democracy, technology, Christianity, or society's average concern for a fellow man.<br /><br />I also don't know if you're thinking of these ideas as they live in an intellectual's head, or the form they take in a general population.<br /><br />Plato wasn't obviously wasn't big on popular opinion after it put Socrates away, and the founding fathers tried building walls against tyranny of the majority. Christianity, in intellectual circles, was reeling ever since the enlightenment. Maybe the wars put it over the edge with the european populace, but maybe state support, or the prosperity achieved in the 50's and 60's made people too comfortable. There are still intellectuals like Robert Wright that firmly believe in global moral progress.<br /><br />With all these facets, I'm not sure how China can have more or less respect than Europe or the US for the greats of western civ. Might it be that there is just more self-consciousness of the east-west divide in China? <br /><br />I agree with the anti-utilitarian part... But maybe from a more practical perspective - that in life there's no guarantee that transferring suffering will actually work. The child in africa might suffer more, but everyone else still has the possibility of suffering.<br /><br />Could Wen and Hu be hedging by trying utilitarianism, but also by recognizing the value of an individual? If progress fails history could remember them for introducing rights (of course in a carefully managed, party power preserving way). If progress succeeds, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.artiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362870581570009563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-44618893551156647042010-10-11T22:44:07.549+08:002010-10-11T22:44:07.549+08:00Alfred Nobel's criteria for the peace prize: &...Alfred Nobel's criteria for the peace prize: "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses".<br /><br />Liu Xiaobo has no accomplishments to merit this prize. The real reason he was given this prize was to encourage his work as a pawn for foreign and western governments to undermine the greater Chinese Society and to create discord amongst the Chinese people.<br /><br />Liu Xiaobo is a traitor and a sellout like his entire generation whose only accomplishments consists of helping Mao destroy chinese culture as the Red Guard and shoving young students in front of tanks to save their own miserable lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-47048606995819121102010-10-11T14:16:11.148+08:002010-10-11T14:16:11.148+08:00countries and people both need to make highly comp...countries and people both need to make highly complicated moral and legal decisions at all times. the calculus behind how one determines when a law is unjust and what one does after one makes that determination is incredibly complicated. <br /><br />many great (and not-so-great) men and women, including liu, have been more than willing to face the consequences of ostensibly illegal activity for the pursuit of what they believe to be a higher good. this is a moral dilemma that transcends law. <br /><br />in that way, your comment is informative but perhaps ultimately not helpful in answering the larger question, which is "to what extent are liu's illegal actions just and/or pardonable?" although i'll grant you that US actions on this front are highly problematic, and we should probably be far less willing to grant a country (with its competing interests) the benefit of the doubt than we would to civil rights activists.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-1642007690388627112010-10-11T13:58:36.734+08:002010-10-11T13:58:36.734+08:00Liu Xiaobo has received hundreds of thousands of U...Liu Xiaobo has received hundreds of thousands of US government funding via the NED in the past five years to conduct domestic political activity in China (including advocating abolition of China’s constitution.) Check NED’s China grants for Independent Chinese Pen Center and Minzhu Zhongguo magazine, which Liu heads.<br /><br />If Liu were American he would be in violation of FARA (Foreign Agent Registration Act). Ron Paul had once commented “What the NED does in foreign countries… would be rightly illegal in the United States”.bobby fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988368193662201410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-10512162594741429992010-10-06T10:06:04.533+08:002010-10-06T10:06:04.533+08:00Lu Xun's hometown! That doesn't seem like...Lu Xun's hometown! That doesn't seem like a fair trade.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-8741507346305274772010-10-06T09:31:49.692+08:002010-10-06T09:31:49.692+08:00You cover Shanghai, and I'll cover Shaoxing he...You cover Shanghai, and I'll cover Shaoxing here in beautiful Zhejiang...Richie Draegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06447767944954559493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4168390023557708961.post-35735324615695455942010-09-28T07:52:32.525+08:002010-09-28T07:52:32.525+08:00I agree. There's no reason for sympathy in the...I agree. There's no reason for sympathy in the abstract, but I believe (know) that there are quite a lot of intelligent, well-meaning people in the government who have their hands tied because of policies of the past, that have their own inertia. The problem is bigger than the government now. Of course, there are solutions to this, of both the inevitable and not-so-inevitable, type, but few of them are very pretty. <br /><br />I also agree that Japan acted as the adults, I hope that my title sort of intimated that as well. I think that you're right about why many are alarmed, but part of it is that they, like many countries, are in a tight spot whenever their citizens actually care about foreign policy. It complicates international action in a variety of ways. <br /><br />At the same time, Japan is different. While a lot of the above-mentioned pathologies exist in other potential disputes, I still believe the China-Japan history adds an element and a critical mass of emotion to this dispute that won't exist in other contexts. But we shall see, there are plenty of other territorial and trade disputes on the horizon.Seth Gurgelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03722652884203904191noreply@blogger.com